conspiracy

How to Beat a Photo-Enforced Speeding Ticket (or Red Light Ticket)

  342 Comments
By Nate Cox | Cop Block

So PLEASE, NEVER EVER opt to pay these Photo Enforced Speeding AND Red Light tickets! You do NOT have to incriminate yourself OR implicate anyone else. It’s the government’s responsibility to provide evidence that YOU were the person driving, don’t help them in their “investigation”.

Last year I received a letter in the mail from the Washington D.C DMV claiming I was speeding. As you can see it was one of those Photo-Enforced Speeding Tickets and they had multiple pictures of my CAR. I knew better to just submit and pay a fine like the majority of people do in this country, unfortunately. I am in the habit of not taking “plea deals”, and I am always in the habit of fighting my tickets and NOT pre-paying them so I don’t have to go to court – like many folks do. I just about always record my interactions with the police, whether it’s a traffic stop or not, that way it keeps the entire situation objective, transparent and I can hold the public servant accountable if he/ she violates my rights.

IMG 0002 1024x884 How to Beat a Photo Enforced Speeding Ticket (or Red Light Ticket)

IMG 0003 1024x885 How to Beat a Photo Enforced Speeding Ticket (or Red Light Ticket)

I can’t recall why I got the next letter, but I think it was because I didn’t respond promptly enough.

Front: IMG 00011 786x1024 How to Beat a Photo Enforced Speeding Ticket (or Red Light Ticket)

Back: BackPg2 793x1024 How to Beat a Photo Enforced Speeding Ticket (or Red Light Ticket)

As you can see these criminals issuing these tickets are hoping that the people will just get scared and pay, or not want to waste their time with it. However the government has to provide evidence that it was actually ME driving, it’s their burden of proof. Just because they got pictures of my car doesn’t mean I was driving. So, in response to the first letter, I mailed them back the following letter (copied and pasted):

To Whom it May Concern,

I received a letter claiming I committed a violation of a speeding law in the District of Columbia on 04/21/2012. As per the instructions, I am writing to plead ‘not guilty’ to this charge. Although this option is said to result in this matter going to court; it is my suggestion that the charges simply be dropped. This suggestion comes out of respect for tax payers, and my request that their hard earned money not be wasted in such proceedings. As there is no evidence of my involvement with this alleged ‘crime’, as well as the fact that I am not granted my 4th amendment right to face my ‘accuser’ (a camera); I see no way the government could prove my guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I also see find no legal requirement for me to implicate someone else in this process, as it is the government’s responsibility to prove a person’s guilt. It is also my 5th amendment right to remain silent on the matter.

If it is the government’s decision to move forward in this matter, I would request copies of any evidence the prosecution may have of my involvement in the “offense”; as well as, all maintenance records for the camera(s) involved.

Sincerely,

Nathan Cox
United States Army Veteran

HUGE thanks to super activist Meg McLain. I was slammed with work and was about to miss the deadline to mail the rebuttal letter in. She was my roommate at the time, I told her about how I needed it to read and she came up with a fantastic piece. I HIGHLY recommend Meg for any of your Graphic Design or Video Animation needs – She’s stellar!

After sending that letter I received this post card:
IMG 0004 1024x689 How to Beat a Photo Enforced Speeding Ticket (or Red Light Ticket)

MANY months later (much more than six months), just the other day I get this post card showing that the ticket is DISMISSED.

IMAG2481 1024x577 How to Beat a Photo Enforced Speeding Ticket (or Red Light Ticket)

So PLEASE, NEVER EVER opt to pay these Photo Enforced Speeding AND Red Light tickets! You do NOT have to incriminate yourself OR implicate anyone else. It’s the government’s responsibility to provide evidence that YOU were the person driving, don’t help them in their “investigation”. ALWAYS go to court and fight your tickets, if there is NO VICTIM.. there is NO CRIME!

This article originally appeared on Cop Block.

  • Funkytee

    This may have worked for this individual in DC, but in Ohio you get a court date as i have. I tried the exact same thing and received the second letter stating my fine increased for not responding within 30 days. I called and they said that I will receive another stating the court date. Which i did. i am scheduled to go to court now.
    So basically this does not work as far as i am concerned.

  • john

    man if you are speeding you are endangering yourself and the public. you should get a ticket!!!

  • Peter

    If you were not driving (and I bet you were then you should say who was. You should be responsible for you Vehicle and those that drive it with your permission. If it was being driven without your consent then pass the ticket on.. Being a smart arse does not prove anything.

  • Guest

    It works exactly the same except you speak the words written above. Do not offer testimony. Please not guilty, for reasons stated, and give no more.

  • Jes

    This doesn’t work in Texas, as they’ve suspended the state constitutional right to a trial in these tickets. You literally CAN’T demand a trial in Texas, as they’ll just turn it over to a collections agency and be done.

  • Bob

    Sixth amendment right to face accuser.

  • Nathan Cox is Stupid

    Speeding and other violations are strict liability crimes. they do not need to prove any mens rea. Just simply that you were speeding. If you say it was not you, then you can be charged with other crimes dealing with proper insurance and your insurance provider will not be please (rates go up). As far as facing your accuser, you are an idiot. Cameras are used all the time in investigations. The state prosecutor is your accuser not the camera. A camera cannot accuse, it is not alive. You probably got the charges dropped because they felt bad that you already devalued your car by putting those Ron Paul stickers all over the place or because you live in the broke ass Commonwealth of Virginia.

  • Jason ‘Jaypoc’ Bauman

    The right to face your accuser is the 6th amendment, not the 4th.

  • MrCris

    You think I have time to waste on going to some bleeding courthouse? Congrats on getting your ticket dismissed nonetheless.

  • guest

    Unless, of course, the speed limit is an arbitrary number set as some sort of one-size-fits-all rate at which we’re all supposed to travel.

    Too bad some people drive better than others, or have better eyes and reaction times, or drive vehicles with better handling, breaks and stopping distances.

    One also has to take into account traffic, pedestrians, weather, street conditions, etc…

    And if speed limits were scientific, the school zone speed would be the same nation wide, but it varies from state-to-state, as do the speed limits in places with the same conditions and road conditions from state-to-state.

    It’s a revenue source first – it’s about safety a very far second.

  • Too_Real7188

    How can they just suspend a constitutional right to a trial, without the people’s approval? What the f***

  • trix

    What about others that are trying to judge your speed? Those pulling out of a side block or entrance have to gauge oncoming speed. They should not have to assume you have better eyes and/or reaction times.

  • MW

    This wouldn’t work in NY because they do not treat these as moving violations with points. They treat them just like parking tickets that are assigned to the car and no proof has to be made on who drove it.

  • Debbie

    in the state of new york,you CANNOT fight a red light camera ticket. it is clearly stated in the traffic court.. idk about speeding tickets via cameras..not sure if we have that here on long island

  • Army86

    You seem very proud of yourself for successfully shirking your responsibilities. Congratulations on breaking the law by speeding–potentially risking life, injury or property damage had you lost control of the vehicle while speeding–and shaking off the consequences of that action when you were caught. What an inspirational tale of how NOT to responsibility for your own actions and paying the price of the offense. What a gleaming example you set for your kids. Way to go.

    If you are opposed to speed and red-light cameras, fight their existence the responsible way by petitioning your civic leaders and elected officials who allowed such devices to be put into service. Stand up for your rights, yes, as you say…. Just stop breaking the law while doing so. Your public article here is an embarrassment.

  • iteration2

    Gauging oncoming speed has nothing to do with the arbitrary nature of posted speed limits. You have to be able to know how to safely pull into traffic at all speeds anyway. Every time you pull out into a street, you don’t look around for a speed limit sign and use that information to intellectually gauge how fast oncoming cars are going. You just LOOK at them and use your judgment.

  • iteration2

    Most of the time, speeding tickets are received because you’ve driven into an area where the posted speed limits are unreasonably and unexpectedly low in localized areas with no good reason other than to give the cops a steady revenue stream. Tailgating is dangerous, as is driving too slow in the passing lane, cutting people off, passing on the right, excessive lane changing, etc. Speeding can also be dangerous, depending on traffic and road conditions, but unlike all those other habits, moderate speeding is one you can (and usually will) get a ticket for even when done in completely safe conditions.

  • joeito

    Its the Sixth Amendment not the Fourth Amendment that expresses the right to confront one’s accusers.

  • Steve

    This did not work in NJ…tried it…just a FYI. And I was told by 3 troopers that if you are SOMEHOW found that you are guilty and driving the car, the charge is a license suspension. Keep that in mind… I wound up ultimately paying mine

  • Steve

    Sad thing is, he is right…I was also told this by 3 troopers in NJ… Not sure about other states

  • Guest

    Key word is Texas.

  • Blackbird 13

    Someone needs to sue the state after paying one of these tickets, then appeal that to until it hits the Federal level. America’s entire justice system is based on the right to a trial.

  • ppxg

    This is bad legal advise! See Idris vs. City of Chicago.

    I hate these cameras. As a libertarian, photo violations outrage me as a violation of my rights. As a pragmatist, photo violations outrage me because there is evidence that they INCREASE accidents. BUT THE ADVISE IN THIS ARTICLE DOESN’T WORK IN MANY GOVERNMENTS.

    Many laws and ordinances (such as City of Chicago) make the owner — not the driver — legally liable. And if you live in one of these places, there is nothing you can do. The laws have been challenged on Constitutional grounds and the challenges were rejected.

    I know the author is well intentioned, but following the advice in your city might back fire if you live in one of these places.

    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1118906.html

  • LINY

    I had a few DC ticket before that I had dropped. In these cases I asked for maintenance records and tests for accuracy on the systems. I do not believe DC keeps these records and that may be why it was dismissed. That is how I had mine dismissed.

  • Shaimson

    Hey guy….you know in your heart if you were speeding or not. And if you were you should stop being a wiseguy and pay the dues for getting caught and stop speeding in the future.

  • Big Vin

    Hey Hippie, Did you start speeding before or after you took your bong hits?

  • Big Vin

    Also, get a hair cut hippie!

  • Adam Roget

    “Waaah! Waaaaahhhh!!” – You

  • Adam Roget

    “Waaaah!! Waaaaaaah!!” – You. No “risking [of] life, injury or property damage” was involved here. I’m not sure how you’re unaware of this, but speed limits are made unnecessarily low by governments so that they can then make money off of speeding tickets. I live in DC, where speed limits are ridiculous: 40 on 395 (a major highway), 30 on New York Avenue (a MAJOR road), and 30 on Connecticut Avenue (another huge road), to name a few. Speed limits should never be below 65 on any highway (but 70 is better), and 40 is just absurd. Maybe you like to blindly follow every inane law that the government passes, but others are not sheep. Yeah, right, “fight their existence the responsible way by petitioning your civic leaders.” What world do you live in? Give me a break. The government is smart: they make the fines high enough to be a pain but not high enough (say, $500 a ticket) where the population will be up in arms about it, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok. Governments create these speed traps because they know it’s an easy way to steal money from people.

  • Adam Roget

    That’s a very hilariously inaccurate statement. I live in DC, where the speed limits are insane: 40 on 395 (a major highway), 30 on New York Avenue (a MAJOR road), and 30 on Connecticut Avenue (another huge road). There’s no way it’s legitimate to say that going 65 on 395 is unsafe, since it’s a MAJOR HIGHWAY. Most speed limits are made unreasonably low so that state governments have an easy way to steal money from people. Come on.

  • Adam Roget

    Somehow, I’ve always managed to gauge other vehicles’ speed when driving, pulling out of driveways, etc. Gauging other vehicles’ speed is one of the skills involved in being a good driver. If you don’t know how to do that, you shouldn’t be driving.

  • Adam Roget

    Sorry for the all-caps, but I just had to emphasize how ridiculous some of these speed limits are.

  • Samantha Piraino

    Yeah that’s not gonna fly with the city of chicago. They’ll just keep sending u stuff and if no payment they’ll just boot ur car. They don’t play, they want their money!

  • If only

    I will try this as, living in the DC area, I get these .

  • Jen

    In the state of MD they will suspend your registration if you do not comply with in 25 days. Even if you weren’t driving, its your car and your responsibility. If you can’t handle the consequences then don’t speed but even more logical, DON’T SPEED, simple as that.

  • Nathan Cox is REALLY Stupid

    Everyone is right, you’re a fucking retard. I agree with everything that “Nathan Cox is Stupid” said but will also add that a traffic VIOLATION is not even a crime. Strict Liability does not apply to crimes, (for the most part) it applies to violations. So your entirely insane argument about cameras and the 6th Amendment is moot because that applies to crimes, not violations.
    Cheers, you t-bagger POS.

  • Big Vin

    Go pick some flowers, hippie.

  • Luie

    I think YOU’RE an idiot for posting something ingorant like that. Nathan Cox makes very valid points as to why he got the charges dropped.

  • AZ Driver

    In AZ they have a camera that get’s your face and plate..unfortunately, I know. lol

  • cd

    I don’t get why people are arguing about red light tickets and speed limits. The article was probably written by some privileged kid who is used to getting away with things. Red light cameras are lame, as is a lot of speed limits, but laws are laws and if you get caught breaking them, then you should accept the consequence. pay the damn ticket and get over it.

  • rob

    This is simply ridiculous in my opinion. Basically what I got from these article is its ok to speed or run red lights as long as you don’t get pulled over by an actual police officer. Man up, if you know you were speeding, which is a crime regardless of what he says, then pay the fine. I hate people like this that start shouting about their rights and which amendments they are citing.

  • Nutshang Lo

    Don’t get too excited Nathan. DC rarely prosecutes speeding tickets that are contested, even ones given by actual cops during traffic stops. They do fine off the people that pay the penalty and plead guilty to avoid going to court. Simply writing a letter to the prosecutor apologizing or asking to reduce or drop the charges completely would have been sufficient.

    Or it could have to do with you flaunting your prior military service at the end of the letter, you douchebag.

  • justme

    This is Crap the ticket belongs to the registered owner of the car It even says it right on his ticket. These are Code violations so you do not have the right to face your accuser same as a parking tickets it belongs to the car.

  • Seriously?

    “ALWAYS go to court and fight your tickets, if there is NO VICTIM.. there is NO CRIME!”

    You were speeding, and you are trying to justify it with capital letters saying ” I WASNT DRIVING NYAH”. If you weren’t driving, then who was driving your car? You are responsible over who drives a vehicle registered under your name.

    “As there is no evidence of my involvement with this alleged ‘crime’, ”

    The evidence is your licence plate

    The crime is speeding.

    To defend yourself, you call the government the criminals when you are the one who broke the law. But who are you going to call if your wife or friend was victim of a hit and run? The criminals? pff, your quivering fingers will be hitting 9-1-1.

    For all we know, you had to pay the ticket and the “post card” is just a piece of paper you printed yourself.
    This is not a pipe.

  • Evan Wohl

    and you believed that? Gullible with out a picture of your face driving the vehicle at that time , there is no way the state can prove it was you. Innocent until proven guilty/ even in the fascist garden state of NJ.

  • Rosha Pearson

    Chicago red light cameras.
    Chicago red light camera tickets increased to $200 from $100. Yet, the system is corrupt, due to low income area cameras not being timed properly. I have witnessed traffic lights not turn yellow. The lights in the low income area will turn green to red or simply be on a shorter time. The shorter time can be 2 to 4 seconds yellow, which is very short when ice is present. This has caused more traffic accidents and road rage.

  • Johny Digs

    Peter – “Being a smart ass” – Really – How about just being smart – The reason that we have laws is to protect us – against the government – Wake Up

  • BrainSmasher

    That isn’t entirely true. Speeds of roads follow some common sense. You can often tell a 45 mph street from a 60 mph street by looking at it. Not often do people look at a car long enough to judge its speed alone. here is many factors that come into play when judging the speed of a on coming car. The typical speed limit for that environment being one of them. IF everyone used different speeds or there were no limits. It would be chaos and take much longer to cross streets. A lot of “He wasn’t going as fast as I thought, I could have made it” and a lot of people who thought they could have made it who got hit.

  • Sam

    If you dont personally judge a car’s speed and you pull out in front of them based on the speed limit – not only are you a fool, but you are also liable if there is an accident. The other car may get a speeding ticket – but right of way still applies if an accident is caused and trumps anything the person with the right of way does. It is up to the drive pulling out who does not have the right of way, to make a judgement call.

  • http://www.freebieiphone.com/ Free Iphone Now!

    BRAVO!!!!!!!!

  • the_phoenix612

    And it doesn’t apply to the automatic output of machines or computers. If there is a real human being somewhere in the chain of processing, then you have the right to demand production of that person for cross examination, but you have no “right” under the 4th Amendment or 6th, to “face” a machine.

  • the people’s elbow

    Yes. The Gov drops cases all the time because they feel bad for you. LOL

  • Chris Gotsch

    Speed limits are based on limitations of sight distances in 90% of all cases and if it is not a sight distance problem like a park or neighborhood it is a limitation based on typical safety factors (ie. people run in a park, so people should go slow in a park, or a school zone) The state does not usually “make” the speed limits, but the contractor who heads a certain project will recommend a speed limit based on sight distance limitations. Civil engineers would refer to this as “The Green Book”. So no the speed limits are not consistent.

  • Nathan Cox is REALLY Stupid

    I would love to hear one of the “valid points” that Nathan Cox made. He names the wrong Constitutional Amendment (the fact that someone who had months to respond couldn’t figure that out should immediately be a red flag, but ok). After naming the wrong amendment, he misinterprets said amendment. 6th amendment is basically to protect against hearsay being admissible in criminal cases. Which doesn’t matter at all because this isn’t a crime, its a violation. A crime is anything punishable by imprisonment. His traffic violation was not punishable by imprisonment, therefore it requires no culpability or mens rea. The government has pictures of him speeding on cameras which would pretty much seal the deal.

    Now Luie, I see you sitting there thinking (or whatever semblance of rational thoughts that go on in your head), “gee, Nathan Cox is REALLY Stupid, then why did he get the ticket dismissed?” Well Luie, I can’t give you a definitive answer there. But I know that the district of Columbia is facing a pretty large budget deficit so they were probably too busy dealing with you pesky t-baggers in Congress.

  • iteration2

    Even assuming that people make assumptions about the speed of oncoming traffic based on the conditions of the road (and assumptions should NEVER trump perception and judgment), the speed limit on a specific street is very rarely consistent from place to place. Highways can drop from 65 to 55 for no discernible reason. Virtually identical single lane residential roads can be anywhere from 20 to 40. Curvy parkways with no barriers between the road and the forest will frequently have the same speed limit as a perfectly straight 4 lane interstate with 20 foot walls to ensure nothing gets onto the road. The speeds frequently do NOT follow any common sense whatsoever, because each speed limit was determined by different people’s subjective viewpoints.

    I certainly agree that there are dangerous speeds for different circumstances, but it’s outrageously stupid to say that anyone who’s speeding is dangerous and should be fined.

  • iteration2

    Even assuming that people make assumptions about the speed of oncoming traffic based on the conditions of the road (and assumptions should NEVER trump perception and judgment), the speed limit on a specific street is very rarely consistent from place to place. Highways can drop from 65 to 55 for no discernible reason. Virtually identical single lane residential roads can be anywhere from 20 to 40. Curvy parkways with no barriers between the road and the forest will frequently have the same speed limit as a perfectly straight 4 lane interstate with 20 foot walls to ensure nothing gets onto the road. The speeds frequently do NOT follow any common sense whatsoever, because each speed limit was determined by different people’s subjective viewpoints.

    I certainly agree that there are dangerous speeds for different circumstances, but it’s outrageously stupid to say that anyone who’s speeding is dangerous and should be fined.

  • Edward Michael Francis

    Ya know, you could always… oh I don’t know… NOT SPEED. How about that? DUH??? I’ve had one speeding ticket in the 15 years I’ve been on the road and it was because I got highway hypnosis at 1AM and didn’t realize the speed limit had gone down. I have no sympathy for people who speed and I have no problem with traffic cameras because the statistics don’t lie… speeders cause accidents and fatalities.

  • The Beard

    Federal law states that (paraphrased summary) most traffic laws are inly applicable to vehicles engaged in commercial activities. The average citizen is driving a personal automobile, not a motorvehicle which are both terms that are defined differently. The actual laws state that a speeding ticket can only be issued if said speeding results in an accident. Brush up on statutes and laws before blindly reciting what you were told by someone trained to mislead you.

  • i like to speed too

    A few things…
    -The vast majority of people who drive a vehicle break speed limits by a few miles per hour occasionally. Let’s cut the judgement on that part, eh, especially since there’s no context here. Most people speed, and most people want to get away with it when it’s convenient and not causing undue risk to other motorists. 45 in a 40 on a free-moving road versus 40 in a 20 school zone are different things, even though both are generally, technically the same offense.
    -That being said, I think most comments have missed the point of the article. Despite the title, it’s not meant to be “How to Beat a Camera 101″, but more of a message of not laying down your perceived rights. I say perceived because, while I agree in principle that these cameras do more harm than good, I don’t stress myself out worrying about what “liberties” the government is “trying to steal” from me. At the end of the day, the PD found a technological way to enforce laws and increase revenue. They built a smarter trap, time to become a smarter mouse and not simply complain that it’s unfair.
    -And on that note…If you are that concerned about things like this, get a decent radar detector, pay attention to your surroundings, and drive like a reasonable human being. A good detector will ping that K band from a mile or more out, and you’ll never have to worry about the issue to begin with. This is not big government trying to f over the little guy, it’s common sense from the law enforcement side and the revenue generation side.
    -Finally…if you really feel like it’s a fight worth fighting, feel free to perjure yourself in front of a notary by saying it wasn’t you who was driving the car. Good luck if and when that backfires and ends up with a more serious charge.

    PS – thank you for your service. While it has (and should have) no bearing on your guilt or innocence in a speeding violation, I still appreciate it.

  • Edawg

    Are you retarded? Or are you just too lazy to read the rest of the sentence? You know the whole “Unless the vehicle was not in custody of the owner at the time.” part… Also You are correct that this is a code (moving) violation, however, parking tickets ARE NOT code (moving) violations, they are parking infractions.

  • Edawg

    Thank you for your last sentence. I hoped someone would say it, so I didn’t have to.

  • James Baranski

    Nathan, your the idiot and don’t know anything.

  • James Baranski

    It does NOT seal the deal/ You have a right to question your accuser. The camera cannot answer back. Back to Kindergarten for you.

  • James Baranski

    It is a Constitutional amendment. It has nothing to do with local ordinances. You have a right to question your accuser and the camera cannot answer.

  • James Baranski

    I will say one thing…. Your an IDIOT

  • James Baranski

    There are many morons here….. I will say it just like some of the educated persons here did. The Constitution clearly says, you have the right to face your accuser. It does not matter if it is a crime or a speeding ticket. It is obvious the camera cannot answer back. Charges dropped.

  • Jose Moreno

    We have Laws to protect us from the Government? Even j-walking?

  • ^^this dude blows politicians

    bro, die

  • terrylrt1

    There has been much controversy surrounding the use of traffic cams. I have seen on the news that many cities have discontinued their use because of legal issues. I personally do not like the use or idea of them for various reasons. I have no opinion on the action taken by this gentleman, as I am not real knowledgeable on traffic law. However, I couldn’t help but notice that the comments section filled up with libtards real quick, which is due in part to the fact that they are all-knowing (about everything related to the fecal matter which spews forth from the muslim-in-chief’s pie hole), intellectually superior (said no one ever), and love freedom (as long as it’s within the confines of a socialist government). In my humble opinion, I feel that their habit of inbreeding with close relatives has finally taken it’s toll and is resulting in an exponential increase in damaged brain cells, causing them to worship all things detrimental to their community (i.e., racism, socialist government, someone to tell them what they like and don’t like, lying politicians, men sucking men’s dicks, allowing women to be raped rather than allowing them to defend themselves, etc.). But, in their defense, thanks to obamacare, they can no longer afford the medications they need to help ease some of these symptoms.

  • citizen

    A bunch of people keep bringing up Chicago…well that is where God Obama, the idiot and chief is from is from and is one of the most corrupt cities in the US. I had a police officer and judge tell that most camera related tickets are dropped if the person goes to court because no officer shows up and a lack of evidence. Sorry those who choose to live Obamigo!

  • Greenup4PA2014

    It also said “…unless the vehicle was not in the custody of the owner at the time of the infraction.” That being said, since they have no facial recognition or anything else specifically identifying him, there is no substantial evidence it was him driving.

  • Lesleigh

    Ok but what about the people who receive these damn tickets and you can CLEARLY See in the ticket that the person did not run a red light? I Recently received one in the mail for running a red light, but if you look closely I turned on a Left green light and what makes it even worse is the First Picture they included with my ticket shows a truck across in the intersection turning as well! Yeah I am going to court on this! B/c I call bull shit!

  • ElfSlayer

    It even says in his letter that the owner, NOT THE DRIVER, is liable. Here’s some actually sound legal advice, even better than any defense…DONT BREAK THE LAW. This guy sounds like a typical shithouse lawyer and democrat. “I broke the law, but it’s YOUR fault”

  • John Zambrotto

    In florida, the judge gets all the disputes in a big room and shows them a video of a man skidding in the rain and running a red light subsequently. He goes on to say that man had to pay his fine… so you are not going to get out of this. Lol

  • Cubstein

    Misguided a little on some of those constitutional issues but good for him.

    Your right to remain silent is only in regard to incriminating yourself. You may be compelled to testify against another. Of course over a minor ticket I doubt they are going to come and interrogate you and it would still apply with regard to not incriminating yourself as the driver.

    With the right to confront, cameras are not witnesses. There is no right to confront (although the footage would be provided in court so you really do have a chance to confront it, for instance is the photo showing me as the driver?) You can probably challenge them to authenticate the footage but that could likely be done with an affidavit.

    Different jurisdictions may be different. As an owner of a car you are civilly liable for any damage done by any driver of the car. They could potentially classify these tickets as civil violations and make the driver responsible. That would likely mean they are not moving violations, kind of like a parking ticket. Your friend parks your car in an illegal spot, you can ask him to pay but ultimately you will be responsible for the ticket.

  • x

    Yellow lights in Chicago are 3 seconds. Everywhere. In the burbs (and most other places) it is 5 seconds. But Chicago has always been 3 seconds. It doesn’t matter if you’re in Englewood or the Gold Coast, it is still 3 seconds.

  • Anthony

    Under district law, the registered owner of the vehicle is liable for payment of the fine for violations recorded using an automated traffic enforcement system, unless the vehicle was not in the custody of the owner at the time of the infraction. so this letter is telling him that if he wasn’t driving then he is not responsible for the infraction. If they don’t have a photo of you in the driver seat then yes this can work. And yes they have to PROVE it was you and no you do not have to imply anyone else.

  • Jim

    You’re***

  • anthony

    no they had pictures of his car speeding….not him theres a difference dumb ass

  • Jason

    Don’t blame democrats for this type of behavior. Democrats pay their bills just like any other political party. Don’t make this a democrat vs republican issue.

  • anthony

    by the way you need a license for a motor vehicle and according to the constitution a motor vehicle is defined as a vehicle used to transport goods for money. and since you as a driver are not transporting goods you do not need a license. you have the right to travel….however before you just up and drive without a license you need to submit a form for the city to declare you a sovereign individual…

  • whatsups

    The advice worked for him so f… Chicago. That case is typical criminal judge crap.

  • whatsups

    Hey troll, the driver is the one responsible, that is what any DMV teaches. No victim, no crime, don’t you get it? Anyone that supports the state in any fashion needs to read,”The Law” by Bastiat and see if on still holds the same view. Don’t be tax livestock, it is your life.

  • Fish

    STOP BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE

  • MDCommuter

    I’m no saint when it comes to driving exactly the speed limit, and I agree that in some places in the Capital Region have ridiculously low speed limits, but the place where this person got the speeding ticket is not one of those places. I used to commute through this exact spot – this section is a 2-3 lane road with tiny lanes, it is lined with barricades, and has no shoulder or space to avoid someone who has lost control of their vehicle. Yet the speed limit is 50 where it should probably be 40 at the most. This guy was going 11-15 over…so basically he was going pretty damn fast. I think speed cameras in areas like this are dangerous because it causes people in tightly packed traffic to slam on their breaks. However, it’s also hard for police to regulate traffic in this area because of the road set up.

  • lori

    Were you speeding? Prove it or not if you were you should have admitted your guilt and not dodged a ticket.

  • Just the facts

    You’re not “facing” a camera though. Just like a speed gun isn’t the accuser when a cop is running a speed trap, a camera isn’t accusing you when a picture is taken at a speed camera, it’s the tech analyst whose working the computers at the central station. You’re getting the concept being accuser and tools used for proof wrong. here’s a site attesting to that very concept:

    http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/35/3515.asp

  • Chris Weaver

    It says in the first paragraph of the Notice of Infraction* that DC law says the Registered owner is liable for payment…

  • Alan Beaver

    Sadly, they are not finding the “driver” guilty, they are finding the vehicle guilty. I.E. when it comes time to renew tags, you can’t until all the violations are satisfied. That is how you end up in the trickbox!

  • Denise

    This is very stupid. If you were not the one driving the car then fine, you should not be responsible for paying a fine. If you were speeding or went through a stop sign, then pay the fine!! Grow up, be a big boy, and deal with the consequences of your own actions.

  • Truth

    So you are so pathetic that you believe in breaking the law at will. If there is any real justice in the world, the next person killed by a reckless driver will be one of your family members.

    While I don’t agree with the use of traffic cameras, reductions in police and increases in call volume are driving their use. People simply do not want to pay for services they demand.

    In many states, traffic violations are administrative penalties, not criminal charges. That means the rules are different. Don’t want to follow them? Don’t drive on public roadways.

  • Tim Teml

    Bad advice, do not follow it, I think he just got lucky. First, your accuser is the camera, and if you want to face it in court you will, they’ll pay the video of your speeding car. Then the officer responsible for viewing the video and issuing tickets will take the stand. He’ll say it’s your car, and he observed it speeding on the video. There goes your 6th amendment right.
    Now if you choose to cross examine him, and I hope you do, then in part you’ll be giving up your 5th amendment rights. Once you invoke the 5th you cannot speak anymore, on any matter involving the speeding. So I would ask away while you still can, or hire a lawyer to do it for you.
    It was your car but it wasn’t you driving, bet they never heard that one before, but you stick with that. Since the car is getting the ticket they’ll issue the fine to the registered owner and who is that? Exactly! They satisfied their burden of proof, your stupid speeding car. They’ll politely tell you that it is now a cival matter between you and the alleged magical mystery driver. Good Luck!
    My advice to anyone trying to get out of one who feels they were wronged. A few laws have passed on auto tickets. They need signs by them or on the road that says such devices are in use, I beat a red light ticket that easy. There needs to be an actual human being that watches the video and issues the ticket. There has to vide proof of your car committing the infraction, and you have the right to view it, I had a confirmed red light ticket this way and I paid the fine. The pictures have to read your license plate clearly, along with a wide angle of the actual car, because plates can be stolen.
    It doesn’t matter who is driving, the registered owner gets the ticket, and the state expects the owner to figure out who was driving. So it ultimately falls on their shoulders, as it should.
    My advice is don’t speed, run red lights, park illegally, or run tolls because we live in the digital age now. Eyes are on us more now than anytime in history, and its only gonna get worse.

  • H Connor

    Well maybe it is time to re-write this to bring it into the 21st Century like so many other things have been. Who would of known back when the Constitution was written we would have the technology we have today!
    In these cases of electronic tickets, the “machines” are the accusers,

  • Tim Teml

    Your accuser is the police officer who views the video and determines there is enough evidence to write a speeding ticket. By your rational a radar gun is the accuser too. I’d love to see the judges face when you ask the RT2000 radar gun to take the stand.

  • Derp

    Funny how many times this brain dead troll posted here today.

  • Derp

    >>Funny how many times this brain dead troll posted here today.

  • wygit

    Please cite which article of the Constitution (written a century before motor vehicles were invented) defines a motor vehicle as a vehicle used to transport goods for money.

    I’m fascinated by the time travel implications of this.
    Were any of the Founding Fathers companions of The Doctor?

  • Derp

    .Funny how many times this brain dead troll posted here today.

  • Nathan Cox is REALLY Stupid

    All you fucking t-baggers are the exact same. You get one ridiculous idea in your head and literally no amount of reasoning or education can penetrate your veil of fucking ignorance.

    We literally explained to you how its NOT A CRIMINAL ACTION. You need to be facing a felony or misdemeanor for the 6th Amendment to apply.

  • Joseph Haynes

    The alternative is to just not speed. There is no justification for finding whatever loop hole is possible to get out of paying for a speeding ticket you, in all likelihood, deserve to have. Any notion of “Fighting the man” or “Not adhering to corruption!” sounds rather silly when put to a speeding ticket. Just my two cents.

  • Nathan Cox is REALLY Stupid

    *would have

  • Derp

    Bingo. I live in a town where every road in town is 35 or 40. For some reason one road is 25 even though it is the widest and safest one in the area. Roads with no shoulders and tons of curves is 40.

    Anyone want to take a guess where the cop is ALWAYS sitting waiting for someone who don’t live in the area to drive down it?

    Revenue. Anyone who thinks speed traps and red light cameras have anything to do with safety are nuts. It’s a BUSINESS and businesses make PROFITS.

  • Common sense!!!!

    Everyone saying this guy is a a POS for standing up for his rights guilty or not is a hypocrite!! We all speed, anyone who says they go 40mph in a 40mph zone and not 1mph more needs to get off the road. I understand the speed restrictions in neighborhoods, roads by parks/outdoor recreational, and schools. But everywhere else it’s BS! Typical suburb main roads should have a maximum speed but 40, 45, etc is too slow (sunny clear conditions). I’m not saying 80-90 should be allowed on these roads (major highways/interstates more applicable). going 10 over doesn’t mean you are beig unsafe, if you think it’s unsafe then you are not logical and have zero common sense, and you yourself aren’t a safe driver, cause logic and common sense are 100% needed when driving. 60mph in icy conditions lacks common sense ( for all you, all wheel drive people, it only means you can excelerate fast NOT STOP FASTER.) if youre on a 4 lane road in the right lane going 45 in a 45 zone and some guy going 60 is coming up on you from behind in the left lane and you decide to make a lane change and you guys crash…….guess what!!! you caused the accident cause you’re not aware of your surroundings you’re not using common sense. His “speeding” did cause you to hit him, you’re lack of porper judgment caused it. You see him coming but think “it’s a 45mph zone, he can’t be going faster than me so we won’t hit” this is called BAD DRIVING!! High speed limits would make people become more aware of their surroundings and make better judgments, and if you don’t well guess what….there is already too many people on this planet so Darwin needs to take effect!!!!!

  • Joe

    Doesn’t matter who was driving,it goes against your registration.

  • El Johnson

    I got feeling this BULLSHIT and when she went to renew tags she paid the fine !!!!!

  • Geoff Boltach

    Interesting article – one quick question. Does this apply to all states or just in Virginia?

  • woot

    Hmmm… well good for you I guess. I break the law all the time by speeding. I know the limits are ridiculous, but that doesn’t make them any less the law. Sometimes I get caught. When I do, I fess up, assume responsibility, and pay the damn ticket. Like a man.

    -United States Veteran

  • RalphLawlerLAC

    Good slave.

  • RalphLawlerLAC

    It doesn’t matter who is driving… … ….

    Yet the author GOT OUT OF HIS TICKET… but you say it doesn’t matter… yet the video uploaded DIDN’T PAY & got off legally. Response?

  • whargoul

    yes

  • plantsdance

    i would have hoped they got a fine for being dumb enough to have tea party/ron paul bumper stickers. also the OWNER of the car is responsible for paying these tickets….don’t listen to this garbage. typical libertarian moron thinking he can work a system that is custom built to work egotistical dip shits like him.

  • No Tinfoil Hats

    Good comment, Chris. Appreciate the information! I did not know civil engineers recommend speed limits. Kind-of kills some of these governmental conspiracy theories, doesn’t it?

  • Do Better

    So when a cop stares at a laser gun to catch you speeding the cop is the accuser….but if a cop stares at a camera to watch you running a red light the camera is the accuser? Law evolves by precedents that are set in the court and I have a feeling your opinion would change if your home security camera caught a burglar and he got off because “the camera was his accuser and he couldn’t face it” lmao. But thanks for the advice on how you can continue running red lights until you take someone out in an intersection.

  • fed up with government

    Call him what you want but he got the ticket dismissed! !!!!! So I call all you ignorant know it all’s the real idiots. ..

  • Each state is different

    This advise has some validity and some of it has errors. The thing is the red light and camera vans are not always attached to the Department of Motor Vehicles. They were initially introduced as a safety device and more importantly a money generator. Many of the states DMV’s would not accept these as points violations because when you are issued a moving violation it has to be issued by a human. Any state that doesn’t have a photo of you driving cannot apply points or revoke your license. What they can do is hold the registered owner responsible for their vehicles operation by means of a fine, registration revoked or even a boot. So the bottom line is to affect your license they have to prove you were driving. Anything else such as a fine, registration revoked or booting the tire is done based on the red light program.

  • Abaddon

    He deserves the ticket for driving a Civic. How’d it even get over the speed limit? It doesn’t look downhill from the picture.

  • Anthony

    Depends on jurisdiction as well. Where I am, a red light ticket is akin to a parking ticket. It doesn’t incur points, and is a fine against the vehicle. None of this is valid here. Just like a parking ticket you can go and fight it, but in this case it’s your word versus the video, which they will pull up at your trial.

  • Anthony

    IN addition, NOT paying these fines will usually result in accruing late fees and other fees making an $80 ticket a $200 ticket REALLY fast.

  • Michael R. Hejmej

    The ticket was dismissed for one reason — you’re a veteran. The average joe has to go to court.

  • Guest-Ben

    Why is everyone these days always trying to get out of things. It’s like we are children trying to tell our mom we’re not the one who broke the vase. (When we actually did) If it was you, then stand up and pay what you owe. If it wasn’t you, make the other person pay the ticket as anyone you allow to drive your car in a reckless manner is putting you at risk for liability and higher interest rates if they get in an accident. When you say “these arbitrary limits set by people who don’t know how to drive”. What, you want some sliding speed scale based on driver’s tests of ability at speed. Then you’d complain that the government was forcing you to go through a skills test. I think the bottom line is, if you broke the law and were speeding or running red lights, then own up. If the picture shows clearly that you didn’t run the red than take it to court like a big boy. I know that if a speeding person or someone who ran a red light hurt or killed you or someone you loved you’d would be singing a different tune. Lets take responsibility for our actions, stop making excuses. Or maybe you speed all the time and run red lights because your mommy didn’t breast feed you long enough. Come on.

  • jimmy

    damn their only 80 bucks in jersey & no points. $250??? wow

  • Jen

    Read the first paragraph of the initial letter, the last part: “unless the vehicle was not in the custody of the owner at the time of the infraction”. Each side needs to have proof, of A) the owner was driving the vehicle and therefore is liable and B) the owner was NOT driving and he needs to prove that he is not liable. It’s kind of a loophole for either side. But at the same time, a good friend is not going to incriminate a friend that may have borrowed the car if he really wasn’t driving. If not he is just lying to get out of a ticket. Either way the camera cannot see into the car to get ID on the driver. So who knows.

  • You Made Me LOL

    Who’s the idiot now? Douche.

  • Chris

    Yes, the guy with the Ron Paul bumper stickers is a democrat. Think before you speak.

  • tomdfw1

    What if it has already flipped over to a collection agency? I never responded to any of their notices.

  • Daniel

    According to the citation they sent you, you do not need to be the driver. The registered owner of the vehicle is liable for the fee no matter whose driving.

  • Sandra Lewis

    Have you ever noticed or counted how long the light stays yellow? About 3 sec. at the most. Now If I’m traveling 55 how in hell can I stop in those three seconds? It’s crap! And I’ve heard businesses that have fleets of trucks are exempt from them. How is that fair?

  • Sandra Lewis

    Have you ever noticed or counted how long the light stays yellow? About 3 sec. at the most. Now If I’m traveling 55 how in hell can I stop in those three seconds? It’s crap! And I’ve heard businesses that have fleets of trucks are exempt from them. How is that fair?

  • Andrew

    But you were speeding, right?

  • Steven L. Ford

    He made a few mistakes.

    Firstly, you are not charged with a crime, this is a civil offense.
    Secondly, you could even more easily not have to deal with those by simply not going 10 over the speed limit or running red lights
    Thirdly, the camera would not be his accuser in court, the person who acts as the delegate for the company who maintains it would be
    Forthly, stating your a veteran to gain leverage over ticketed offenses you committed does a great disservice to the reputation of the armed forces
    Fifthly, the traffic cameras do not have to prove who was driving, they have to prove who the owner of the car is… just like parking tickets don’t have to prove who parked there, just who owns the illegally parked car
    Sixthly, he claimed her right to remain silent, however he gave up the right.
    Seventhly, his 4th amendment right doesn’t grant him the right to face his accuser, it’s his 6th amendment right (which as I stated, he incorrectly calls a camera)
    Eightly, he doesn’t have the right to all maintnance records of the camera (not that they would help him), only last inspection and whether it passed or failed inspection and whether anything that failed was fixed and when

    which by the way, when radar checks speed, it follows a SIN curve. If it is 100% accurate, it will show the fasted speed. If it is off at all, it goes back down — unless of course you are traveling in reverse, but the camera wouldnt get a picture of you anyway that could be used. The more out of sync a radar is, the slower it will show the speed to be.

  • Gary

    Funny how many times I have read your dumbassed whine here today

  • Holy Moly

    wha ?

  • OutWest Landowner

    You obviously do not know your rights, In America you are innocent until proven guilty. You do not have to prove your innocence like as required in Great Briton. Stop being a sheeple.

  • Glowyrm

    I was with you until the “No victim no crime” part.

    That’s just an idiotic sentiment.

    Going through a red light (not saying that is what you did or didn’t do) COULD result in people getting hurt. Just because someone did not get hurt on any one particular occasion does not mean it was not wrong and that there should be no punishment…

    Come on now.

  • Tuz

    Where at in OH? I Did the same, never paid the ticket got second letter with increased penalties , ignored that, in a while received a collection notice ignored that, waited a long while checked my credit for discrepancies and nothing, lol again the burden of proof is on them.

  • BigBro is Watching

    Attorneys always get cases ruled in their favor based on legal technicalities. Average citizens should have the same chance to use a technicality to get a ruling in their favor.

  • lancelot

    MOST of the time it isnt a police officer. 99.999999% of the time is a company who is reaping the payments of operating the camera’s

  • Cloora

    In California this works very well. Even if they get someone one camera, if it is your wife/husband in the photo that is NOT the person on the registration then it is a GENDER MISMATCH and it very easy to fight.

    http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamsticket.htm

  • Billy Detzel

    No victim, no crime. So if a cop get’s me for speeding on his radar, who exactly is the victim?

  • FreedomWitnesser

    These are 100% automated systems. There is not human interaction until the ticket is challenged, hence the 6+ month wait for a response on his challenge. The Camera senses a speeder, takes a picture and a ticket is produced by the computer, printed out and some schlep stuffs it in an envelope as they get pooped out of the printer. That’s how it works. That’s why so many localities are employing the technology. It doesn’t matter if 1 person fights it an wins, most won’t. It’s easy money without the need of a labor force enforcing those intersections.

  • Bob Deveny

    The real question is whether you were guilty. There is such a thing as ethics, regardless of the law.

  • JC

    i’ve tried this in New Orleans and they laughed at me and asked me to show them “proof” that it was illegal and i asked them to show me “proof” that *I* was actually the one driving the car. They couldn’t PROVE and I couldn’t find any laws on the books in Orleans Parish about it having to show the driver’s face… They ended up dropping one of the two photo tickets (they were consecutive on the same street, less than 2 minutes apart) and only required that i pay one, but if this happens again I’ll give this a shot. Can’t hurt…

  • Flagged

    Actually, MD will suspend your license if not paid within 60 days of the notification. They also flag your registration & you have to pay $30 per flag to be able to renew your registration. I know this only because it happened once. I forgot to pay within the 30 day time frame. They sent me a letter saying if I didn’t pay within 30 days from the date of the 2nd letter my license would ve suspended. They never notified me about the flag though. I found out when I went to renew my tags online & saw the flag.

  • William Kostric

    First of all, there no evidence that speeding equals more dangerous. Second of all, tickets don’t solve safety problems. Your logic fails, twice.

  • wow

    theres an even better way to avoid paying speeding tickets. stop speeding you smart assed know it all piece of shit mother fucker

  • keimh3regpeh2umeg

    No, people who can’t drive cause accidents and fatalities, regardless of speed.

  • Mark Meagher

    What about parking tickets? Those have been around for decades before the digital camera made ticketing moving violations by camera an issue. How is a non-moving violation any different? The ticket goes to the owner of the car who may or may not be the one that was driving. Yes you can face the ticketing officer in court, but if he/she did not see you personally park your car illegally, how can you be found guilty?

  • http://www.chickenunderwear.com Chicken Underwear

    Maybe you should not speed.

  • Guest December 11

    Chicago is all about taking your money! Then they blow it on fiascoes
    like the light posts on Lake Shore Drive or other insider contracts to
    friends of the Mayor. Chicago’s murder rate is off the charts, even
    compared to other huge cities in the U.S.

    Chicago cops are
    corrupt as a rule. This study by the University of Illinois at Chicago
    titled “Crime, Corruption and Cover-ups in the Chicago Police
    Department” detailed police corruption in Chicago.

    http://www.uic.edu/depts/pols/ChicagoPolitics/policecorruption.pdf

    The approach by Nathan Cox is valid in some places. It worked in Davis, California as of the year 2012.

    The
    court in IDRIS v. CITY OF CHICAGO ILLINOIS doesn’t know how to write.
    They called one of Plaintiffs’ arguments “a dud”. “Plaintiffs contend
    that vicarious liability offends the substantive
    component of the due process clause, but that argument is a dud.”

    “A dud”?! Are you kidding? What kind of law school did these judges go to?

    There
    are other things you should do if you get one of these tickets. Other
    websites describe your options. One is to request a copy of the City’s
    contract with the company that provided the cameras and provides the
    service to the City. They are not allowed to charge per ticket as that
    provides a direct financial incentive to write more tickets. It has to
    be a flat fee. Most cities are hip to this but you can check.

    Also, request copies of all payments in the last 5 years from the City to the company. Request copies of all calibrations of their radar machine including dates.

    Now I am not recommending this and would surely never do this but if somebody were to incapacitate the camera taking these photos it might save a lot of drivers a lot of money! Or if the camera broke down for some reason . . . .

  • Michael BigBotz

    Why shouldn’t he write Veteran of the Armed Forces as a signature? He has earned the right to do so. Why do Police officers give out PBA or DEA cards to friends and family, to use in case of being pulled over or in an unfortunate situation. This is the way of the world, do you think people get anywhere in this world without recognition? He simply stated how he felt and the court agreed with him, does it matter what made the Hearing examiner came to this conclusion? NO! He is also right not to just simply pay the fine because it is the easy way, tickets are a business and they will try to make as much money as possible no matter what but they also know most people will just pay and that is what I believe the poster of this is trying to get across. By what i’ve been reading from the comments, everyone who is charged with a crime (civil or criminal) should just plead guilty because it is “The right thing to do”, what country do we live in again? Oh yeah America, innocent until PROVEN GUILTY not just assumed guilty.

  • NaMoeLepo

    No, but you are guaranteed the right to confront your accuser, whomever, or whatever it my be!

  • David Paradis

    The author of this article is an asshole. He is enabling and encouraging reckless drivers to run red lights and drive too fast. The result will be traffic deaths: maybe your mother or wife or son. Justice would be served if he dies or is injured as a result of a reckless driver who read this article and took his advice.

  • Steve Brown

    The problem is that the decider (the judge) is a part of the same syndicate that set up the cameras and wrote the ticket. So though you are absolutely correct, the judge would likely just tag your ass with a larger fine and you either pay or spend 20 times as much on attorneys.

  • chompers

    when I lived in Hawaii my friend got a ticket in the mail saying he was speeding and ran a red light in phoenix Arizona but my friend lived in Hawaii it was a pic of a older guy and not even my friends vehicle of course he didn’t have to pay but still the point is nothing is perfect

  • glitchsys

    That’s dumb. In South Florida they have a frontal picture of the car and they can show the driver. If you stated that it wasn’t you driving the car, then they can bring you to court and show that front picture and you’ve perjured yourself or something they call it, pretty much caught in a bold face lie and you’ll get a even larger fine and penalty and it opens up a whole new world of hurt. When I get these I just use a lawyer, costs less than the fine and it’s the principle of it all.

  • “nathancoxisstupid” is stupid

    “Nathan Cox is stupid” is an idiot. The correct word would be Pleased sir. If you’re going to troll and correct other user’s grammar, I suggest you make sure yours is correct. Ass hat. Fuck off. Go troll another site you douche nozzle.

  • Hellscreamgold

    So you got off on a ticket you likely deserved – congrats!

  • Rob

    My question: Were you driving the car at the time you got the ticket? If so, you’re lying to get out of a ticket rather than being accountable to your actions, not very admirable.

  • Michael Brian Smallwood

    I live in Butler County, Ohio and I have over a dozen of these red light tickets ( one night I ran every red light camera intersection in town, purposefully) They stopped even sending the notices after the sixth or seventh infraction. I explained it to the lady at the local police this way: If someone borrows my car and strikes and kills a pedestrian, do they charge my car with vehicular homicide? Am I obligated to tell on the person driving if they are my spouse? Wouldnt the government investigate who was driving before pressing charges? Yes, one is criminal and one is traffic, but its the same basic idea. The vehicle isnt responsible for the death, the driver is. Just like the vehicle isnt responsible for speeding. If they cant prove who was driving in a criminial case that goes to grand jury, guess what? no bill.

  • Michael Brian Smallwood

    Why do you say he’s privledged, because he drives a nicer car than you? Maybe he just went to college. Jelly?

  • curious

    I don’t get why everyone keeps saying it is the owner of the vehicles responsibility. If I’m driving my car, which was given to me by my parents and is under their name, and I run a red light with a camera, the ticket get’s sent to them. Should they pay for my ticket?

  • bigal64

    It is true .. I’ve been driving a friends truck for days now .. What happens if I get pulled over .. who get ste ticket? Me or the owner ? Now if a camera catches the “car” speeding the owner gets the ticket . How is this fair ? My kid could be driving my car .. Who insurance history does the “ticket” go on ?

  • Bob

    ppxg…you are correct. In fact, DC (the origination of the ticket cited) was one of the first cities in the country to have photo radar and red light camera’s and structured the law in the manner you noted. I can only assume that they did not proceed with Mr. Cox’s matter per THEIR choice and for whatever reason they choose. There was no leagl requirement for them to either proceed
    -or- rescind the infraction. THEY HAVE THE CHOICE.

    From Mr. Cox’s standpoint his ploy worked…no problem…HOWEVER, as others have noted I would not “hang my hat” on this information as it COULD end up causing additonal $$$$!

  • That Guy

    At the end of the day you know who this actually hurts? The person sacked by the camera who has a legitimate gripe because the camera malfunctioned or whatever. Instead of this person being able to schedule an appropriate time for a court date and defend themselves when they are COMPLETELY INNOCENT you bog down the system with bs wrangling because you wish to “beat the system” all the while being completely in the wrong. Kudos my man, kudos.

  • mouse

    How about THIS…….STOP speeding Mr. Cox!!
    We’ll all be better off for it. As a Veteran WHY would you be doing these “things” against our (as a nation) rules anyway? 11-15 mph OVER the posted limit IS really uncalled for…and unnecessary as a citizen. You seem to make such a point of “pointing out” that you are a veteran. ….why is that? You were “entitled” to kill people as a military man….so you have the rights to do so as a citizen as well? You are acting as if you care less. Bucking up against rules….recording “every interaction” with the police. How many have you had that you feel THAT is necessary?!? Of course everyone wants to protect themselves, and your recordings are not a bad idea, but if you are having repeated interaction with Authorities, then you should look at yourself and modify your behavior. I want to say thank you for your service, but I cannot at this point, as you have undermind it’s integrity with you misguided “helping” to beat the system and your continued endangerment of citizens. ..as it appears to be so in your own words.

  • Nutshang Lo

    This “former veteran” (clearly enlisted) didn’t even know which amendments were what. It is always the owner of the vehicle that gets a ticket. Photo-Enforced tickets only come with one penalty: a fine. Your insurance won’t be affected, it’s a $125 fine, relatively minor for running a red light (A 4 point ticket in most states if caught by a cop). The purpose of not giving points for photo-enforced tickets is because the court knows they cannot prove who the driver was, so it’s unfair to penalize the driver with points, while a fine can be paid by anyone. Had your friend been driving YOUR car and gotten this ticket, I’m sure they would pay the fine if you asked them and you would get on with your lives. What is the point of trying to fight such a trivial ticket that you deserve when the courts are already giving you a break. And furthermore, why would this moron try to argue amendments (which he got wrong) and his “constitutionally protected rights” and he was just going to put “OH By the way Im an Army Veteran! So I can do Anything I Want” at the end of his cute little letter? This douchebag knows if he got pulled over by a cop for this and showed him his military ID, he would have gotten off anyways. Why do these idiots who had nothing going in their lives so they decided to ENLIST in the army think they deserve special treatment? Your job as a lowly enlisted soldier doesn’t make you anymore important than anyone else.

    This guy is clearly an idiot/hick.

  • LotsofUaredumbasShit

    Wow, most of you are stupid as shit and would be singing a very different tone if you loaned your car to someone and they got you a photo ticket. The prosecutor MUST prove you were in violation. It does not matter if the ticket says the owner because the owner may not have been committing any offense. As for the Chitcago matter, that is a communist city full of liberal nut jobs that have no brains and it’s been proven time and time again. The matter of “burden of proof” needs to be brought to SCOTUS because these cameras are not enough evidence of who was driving and should always be challenged in court.

  • Skeptic7

    Many of these lights have been rigged to shorten the yellow light so getting a ticket for a red light is inevitable.

  • Edward Boese

    James, go piss off. If you check the research you would find that the Tea Party members are smarter and more informed than people like you. If you aren’t mature enough to have a debate without calling people names then go back to kindergarten and resume your leftist indoctrination. You obviously subscribe to the mantra: My mind is already made up so don’t confuse me with the facts. Obviously you are one of the Obummer supporters who want all their free stuff and believes in the nanny state. Just like John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the Tea party wants smaller government, lower taxes, a strong military, and the government following the U.S. Constitution. What is wrong with that? Oh sorry, it doesn’t follow your liberal agenda that the vast majority of Americans do not support so you get liberal judges appointed who will legislate from the bench, again a violation of the separation of powers.

  • denver41

    those damn cameras shouldnt be legal

  • jj

    so.. if I rent a car in MD.. the rental place will pick up all the tickets.. because they own the car ?

  • http://www.chickenunderwear.com Chicken Underwear

    I got a red light ticket (in NYC) while I was driving my bosses truck.

    The owner is responsible for the payment and nobody’s insurance goes up. He took it out of my pay and yelled at me for running red lights.

    It is very fare.

  • Conrad Pilapil

    Here is a better idea..don’t speed.? Just saying.. I don’t have to explain myself if I’m not doing anything wrong. I also don’t get accused of doing something wrong because I try really hard to live right. Yeah, I still do stupid crap.. I’m not perfect, and when caught, I man up. Those that borrow my car will not speed or do stupid crap in it.. otherwise they know they will never be able to borrow it again.. choose your friends wisely.

  • Josh

    I agree with fighting tickets but just so you know Billy. It’s considered “Danger to Society”. The government has the right to, fine, arrest you (Or choose not to allow bail) if they feel it is in order to hold safety over the rest of society.

    Although that’s sketchy, it’s mainly to talk about future victims. I don’t want to get hit by a car going 100.

  • angie497

    They keep those records, as do the companies that do the maintenance and testing. In all likelihood, you simply got lucky enough to run into someone that decided that the costs of providing the information requested outweighed the possible return. You could have easily had your request read by someone that decided making an example of someone trying that route was worth the expense involved.

  • ajm

    While I agree you shouldn’t just blindly pay tickets I disagree with just getting out of them to get out of them. I also think the statement “No victim, no crime” is ridiculous. There are speed limits and not adhering to those is breaking the law. You may not affect another person you are still breaking the law.

  • IamTheLaw

    Speeding is not a crime, it is a violation. In said violation, the State would be the victim/complainant.

  • dg

    The reason why the ticket was dismissed was not because of his “sterling” defense, but because there is another vehicle going in the same direction as his vehicle in one of the pictures. That will cause an automatic dismissal in DC, no other defense necessary.

  • christnt

    Just pay the fucking ticket you cheap fucks. no wonder our country is hurting. cause of people like you!!!

  • The Gibbster

    The only problem I have with that is if they are attributing the ticket to the vehicle than it should be treated like a parking ticket. Points and fines should be no way connected to a person’s DL.

  • The Gibbster

    My husband, approx two months ago was involved in a redlight situation. The only problem is he drives a tractor trailer. The tag they sited was the tag on the trailer which belongs to a company he sub contracts with not his vehicle. The company matched up the tag and decided that my husband was towing that trailer on that day and wants him to pay the $185.00. I told him absolutely not. Regardless of what trailer he was pulling, in order for the camera to get a photo of the tag on his trailer his vehicle would of had to of been completely through the intersection. His trailer may allegedly ran the red light but his vehicle did not. For those who do not know, if your front tires have crossed the big white line at the beginning of the intersection before the light turns red you are considered to be in the middle of the intersection and can proceed with caution.

  • malcome

    Yes there is a person involved. The camera sends the evidence to a computer. They then have someone review the evidence and approve or deny. the evidence. If they approve it, it will be sent to the violator.

  • malcome

    Lol…you have no idea what your talking about!

  • Juday

    “Fifthly, the traffic cameras do not have to prove who was driving, they have to prove who the owner of the car is… just like parking tickets don’t have to prove who parked there, just who owns the illegally parked car”
    “Fifthly, the traffic cameras do not have to prove who was driving, they have to prove who the owner of the car is… just like parking tickets don’t have to prove who parked there, just who owns the illegally parked car”
    “Fifthly, the traffic cameras do not have to prove who was driving, they have to prove who the owner of the car is… just like parking tickets don’t have to prove who parked there, just who owns the illegally parked car”

  • dan

    I thought there was supposed to be an injured party for there to b a crime

  • the_phoenix612

    Nope. Not if it’s the automatic output of a machine. Who would you cross examine? That’s the key. If there’s a technician somewhere in the chain putting it together, you can call them, but if it’s purely automatic like this there is no recourse under the 6th Amendment.

  • Eli

    Your right to face your accuser is only applicable for criminal cases, a traffic citation is not a criminal case.

  • Jason

    Not taking sides here but I do feel the need to point out a fallacy in this statement. There are not necessarily insurance implications here, if someone else is driving your car THEIR insurance is the one primarily responsible for anything that happens while they are driving your car. Now if they are uninsured then your insurance is responsible for it and your premiums will increase. Insurance insures individuals, they use your vehicle information to base your premiums on. My insurance covers me for ANY vehicle I drive not just my personal vehicle.

    This is FACT as I wrecked friends car back in high school and my insurance had to pay for it because I was driving. The other proof of this lies in the fact that last year a friend borrowed by Jeep, hydroplaned and totaled another individuals vehicle. THEIR insurance was responsible for the accident not mine and I did not experience any increase in premium because the accident cost my company $0.00.

    The rest of your comment I agree with, especially the Ron Paul portion

  • This guy is a dumbs

    While your point is valid perhaps if you are going to pass yourself off as a legal scholar you know what the actual law is. The right to confront ones accuser is part of the right to due process which is part of the 6th Amendment, second you must answer a court summons as part of the due process and entering plea of any kind is not a 5th amendment violation but can be a violation of court proceedings. Additionally you must actually read what the law says about the photo captured violations. Most often time the law does not state the driver is cited but rather the OWNER of the car just like a parking violation, in this case it is inconsequential who is driving the vehicle. Also most traffic violations are non-criminal and thus there is no risk of self incrimination as there is NOT A CRIME. For the future perhaps you should brush on the your legal knowledge before you take it upon yourself to tell people how to avoid laws, which more then likely they violated.

  • Randy

    Why not just get a radar?

  • Vince

    Some cameras get ur license plate and face :(

  • woad2112

    It is criminal law, so as a result, it odes apply. If you go to court for a regular traffic ticket and fight it, the cop that gave you the ticket is the accuser and he has to testify against you. I have got out of several tickets just by pleading not guilty. Most cops will not remember the situation and can’t testify against you.

  • woad2112

    Incorrect…traffic laws are under the criminal code, so they do apply…if it was civil law, then you would be correct.

  • Derp is the real troll

    How many times are you going to post this same response, troll?

  • artista

    Idiot

  • artista

    You just made his point for him. There is no one to confront, therefore the ticket was dismissed. It should be simple but liberals aren’t good at deductive reasoning.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/MrDrawingguy MrDrawingguy

    Thanks for this Nate, well done sir!

  • Christopher Bement

    advice*

  • Hahathisguy

    How many dicks do you suck on an average week?

  • Nola_Fire
  • Knee Oh

    This case and others mark the resurgence of the Constitution in America. Very exciting times!

  • im just sayin

    or you could slow dawn and maybe stop at the red lights. unless your false feelings of superiority make it worth risking the life of others

  • im just sayin

    im at a loss for words with this genius

  • ra44mr2

    Tell you what, since you are such an upstanding citizen YOU pay everyone elses tickets.

  • ra44mr2

    So im curious how they are getting the tags if its facing front in florida, we have no front tags here.

  • Dustin Beard

    Your dealing with a still image here….. and that’s supposedly proof. So by that logic, I take a picture of my car in a parking lot and it can be interpreted as I was “speeding”. A PICTURE SHOWS NO MOVEMENT!!! I DONT CARE WHAT NUMBER YOU TAG ONTO IT, THERE’S NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. Other than the fact that they took a picture of his car on the road….”PICTURE” let that word sink in for a minute. Also calibration, all of them have at least a 2-3 mph margin for error that can not be fixed. Example, doing 71-72 in a 70, and they pull you over, that ticket can easily be fought and thrown out because your speedo is always going to be a mph or two off. Speed registers from your speed sensor, travels through the wiring harness, to the computer that then decodes that information, then shoots from the computer to the instrument panel (via another harness), so that you can then interpret that data for you use… That delay can not be removed, not even with digital display, a simple scan tool that can access your ECM data will prove this quickly. So any tickets issued that close to the speed limit, are complete bullshit. Now if your doing 5-10-20 over the speed limit, then like many others where saying you DO have the right to face your accuser, hence the whole damn reason of a traffic stop, or a court appearance (which the officer should be present in because he is the accusing party. Now if a camera says that you are speeding, you still have the right to face the accusing party, and if all that party can present is a photo taken of your vehicle. That’s not evidence…. that’s a fucking joke!!! ONCE AGAIN YOUR BEING ACCUSED OF A SPEEDING VIOLATION FROM A STILL IMAGE

  • Matt

    Cool… won’t matter in 90% of the cases that try to contest their tickets.

  • DownSky

    Yeah, the fine still has to be paid. The reason you don’t get the points on your license is because they can’t prove it was you. As for the “right to face your accuser,” the accuser in this case is the DC city government, not the camera. The picture is just their evidence that the car, registered to a specific owner, was speeding. If you can discredit the evidence, then you’re probably in the clear. As for Mr. Cox, I’d be willing to bet his letter reached the paper-pusher who would rather waive the fine than deal with him. I’m glad it worked for him, but don’t count on it working for you.

  • MC

    There are no points associated with a camera violation for that exact reason. And typically, the fines associated are half of what they would be if you were actually pulled over by an officer.

  • Chris s

    I think in my state if someone else is driving my car and gets a ticket, I, the owner, still needs to make sure it gets paid. But here, i’d be more worried of them tracing my license plate number with my name, which they would have already done if they mailed me a letter… So wait a minute… Government logic?? I think i’m missing the point

  • Graceunlimited

    So it’s ok to run a red light as long as no one sees? You my friend are a douche. Because one of those times you think nobody sees you will be the time you slam into a minivan full of a family. Maybe if you, oh I don’t know…obey traffic laws, you might not have gotten a ticket in the first place?

  • Private Eye

    “And it doesn’t apply to machines or computers” – I don’t know what copy of the Bill Of Rights that you are looking at, I have never seen that clause. The right to face my accuser includes the right to confront and cross-examine witnesses and also applies to physical evidence.

  • Bloom_67

    Hey, I have a great idea. Don’t drive 11-15mph over the speed limit. Done. You win.

  • Fred

    Constitution is the wrong word, but he’s not wrong otherwise. Learn to actually do some research before bashing. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/USCODE-2011-title18/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap2-sec31/content-detail.html

  • leistill

    I think the ticket was dismissed because of the end of his letter…. see below

    Sincerely,

    Nathan Cox
    United States Army Veteran

  • DCO

    The speed limit should be a lower limit if anything. All those slow people are the ones who cause problems on the road.

  • lyrralt

    You can demand that the machine maintenance and calibration records be checked. If they are out of date you can get out of the ticket, if they are up to date you just proved the case against you.

  • lyrralt

    But machines are not prone to opinion or failing memory concerning an incident.

  • My Name 2

    You are correct. In most places “an intersection legally entered may be legally exited”

  • Larry Cunningham

    Just what are you doing, and how are you driving, to inspire all those “interactions” with the police? Why do I get the feeling you just thrive on confrontation? Maybe I’m just lucky, but I haven’t needed to fight a traffic ticket in well over 40 years.

  • RR

    Dude…you sped, and were clearly warned on the signs posted “photo enforced.” Pay the fucking fine. I doubt your taxes pay for the roads you travel on in the District, so they are collecting from violators like you who come for the high paying jobs and economical benefits from the District- and are too stupid enough to read the MULTIPLE speed limit signs that basically say “we will take a picture and fine you.” I doubt this ploy will work again for someone else

  • Jack

    Good job getting out of the ticket, an easier and SAFER way is just to slow down. Speeding is almost always a factor in accidents…you could hurt yourself or others.

  • Bill Karp

    wrong is wrong. if falsely accused, that one thing. When people can’t be honest s#@t happens.

  • Eddie

    I Have a question? WHY wouldn’t you pay the ticket if you ran a red light? YOU IDIOT could have killed someone.. shameful break the law and then try to skirt the system.. someone could have been killed by your stupidity … GROW up and be accountable and pay the ticket…

  • Jack

    I hope we get to see the red-light camera image of you being t-boned by a tractor trailer.

  • Billy Detzel

    Ok. Thanks.

  • the_phoenix612

    You can sure try, but you have no CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to do so.

  • the_phoenix612

    That’s not why the ticket was dismissed. The ticket was dismissed because they decided dealing with this guy was more hassle than it was worth. It was not dropped because he had a constitutional right violated.

    It’s good practice to contest these for the chance that they decide it’s not worth the trouble, but it’s patently absurd to cloak your attempt to do so in the Constitution.

    And I’m not a liberal, and I don’t think I would have gotten into a top 3 law school with poor deductive reasoning, but thanks.

  • Common Sense

    Well I was with you until the last moment. Just because there is no identifiable victim, doesn’t mean there isn’t a crime. That’s ignorant to think. There were also some points in here that are legally not correct. Good for you for getting off the ticket, but just know that there is a lot more to the law than just this. So congratulations on getting out of a ticket, but next time, maybe just not speeding would save you a lot of unnecessary trouble?

  • artista

    He did not claim his constitutional right had been violated. He claimed that under the constitution he had the right to confront his accuser, and could not be coerced into turning in a friend, or incriminating himself. What is patently absurd about that? You obviously did not attend any of those so-called top law schools.

  • http://www.farandawaycycling.com/ Bob Thompson

    if you claim not to be the driver, Wash DC will ask that you provide information on the driver. Perhaps you cannot be compelled to provide that info, but speeding is a very real problem and so is running red lights. Thumbs down for any advice on how to try to skirt responsibility for speeding. Slow down.

  • Patrick Freedom Eagle Sparks

    Brace yourself the law professors are here

  • Mat

    Yeah sure, so let’s just give up our right for due process! You sound like a winner!

  • ness

    In regards to the output of the machine it has to be a human vs human, not a human vs a organization or corporation. So in turn his defense is valid.

  • The Bruce

    this extortion by local /fed goverments. I think is illegal.

  • Bob G

    If did the crime pay the fine…. if someone else was driving your car make them pay!

  • Anon777777

    If you have the option that Mr Cox had, then contesting by mail may indeed cause the municipality to miss the deadline to schedule a hearing, and lead to dismissal. Any other way you can join those who are opting to overwhelm the system with hearing requests will also probably beat the automatic ticketing. Mr Cox’s legal argument really doesn’t have any weight, since he is responsible as owner of the vehicle, regardless of who is driving. However, his tactic doesn’t require a sound legal argument. Any argument will do as long as you request a hearing or state that you are contesting the ticket. If you actually get a hearing, you will lose.

  • Tim Jensen

    Speeding is not necessarily dangerous or reckless. However, the people driving like little blue haired old ladies are as much if not more of a menace, driving too slowly and having no appreciation for other drivers is much more a safety issue. Speed alone kills no-one. Losing vehicular control, improper lane changes, aggressive driving, enjoying your damned cell phones to the exclusion of all else are behaviors inherently more dangerous.

  • Mugsey

    LOL did you rely just drop the “I’m in law school” line to prove your point on the internet? Real cool bro… real cool…

  • Storm

    Should of gotten a ticket for ruining that bumper

  • 85ZingoGTR

    Wouldn’t work for the red light cameras in NYC. They don’t don’t give two shits. They’ll boot the car or impound it until someone pays up.

  • 85ZingoGTR

    Wrong. The country is hurting because of conservative dickheads willing to ruin the country wasting tax dollars in wars in order to make a pretty penny of profit. NOT your average working American who is trying to survive. Just ask your boy Dick Cheney who’s company Haliburton made 30 billion in contracts in Iraq.

  • Wowser

    I read this whole thing, all these comments. It’s normal that people have incorrect beliefs about the law. but It’s scary when people are wrong and so emphatic about it. This comment above is the only one that spotted even one applicable issue. Practically speaking, however, the insurance charges, etc., wouldn’t be filed. Prosecutors generally don’t touch traffic tickets, they’re direct-filed and the citing officer acts as the prosecutor. Re the other topic that came up in here, the issue of whether or not a defendant has a constitutional right to maintenance logs, calibration logs, general discovery, etc., go read Brady again and then post that there’s no obligation. If you don’t know what I mean by go read Brady again or if you’ve never read it then you’re not really qualified to use capital letters and talk down to other people telling them they’re wrong when it’s you that’s wrong

  • Michael Mcpherson

    If you could read Mr.Bauman your statement is incorrect because above he sad it was the 5th so in your correction you are false therefore making it another incorrect statement. Case dismissed.

  • Kenny1776

    The government fines us every month through the income tax. You pay a penalty for working. Why continue to feed the beast?

  • Kenny1776

    Someone didn’t read the article. Go back and see what the ticket was for. IDIOT.

  • Kenny1776

    Hey douche, did you read what ticket was for? Because it wasn’t for a red light. Next time read the article.

  • Kenny1776

    He never lied. He said the government had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was him driving. Which they couldn’t.

  • Kenny1776

    People who write tickets are assholes.

  • Kenny1776

    He didn’t run a red light. Read the article.

  • Kenny1776

    A lot of people on here talking like they’re so righteous. For everyone who is saying that if he was guilty then he should pay the fine, next time you go 1 MPH over the speed limit or touch the line on the side of the road, take your happy ass down to the police station or court house and turn yourself in. If you won’t do that, then STFU.

  • Rob

    Incorrect sir, he states “I am always in the habit of fighting my tickets” therefore he never takes accountability for his actions.

  • Kenny1776

    When the government takes money from citizens, that is less money that can be invested in the local economy. That is why the country is hurting.

  • Kenny1776

    Everyone look! This man, mouse, has never gone over the speed limit in his entire life!

  • Kenny1776

    He already got out of it.

  • Kenny1776

    Just because the government said it doesn’t mean it’s right. They can send you a letter saying you owe them a billion dollars. Does that mean you do?

  • creed

    Damn right! And they pay their taxes too, just ask John Kerry about his yacht purchase.

  • DaveO

    Unless you are going to fast in Virginia, then it is a criminal violation. (I was going 81 in a 65) It cost me a lot of money to a lawyer to get it knocked down to a moving violation.

  • Nobody

    I think you are a liberal and an idiot just for flaunting your education…..lol…You know what they say don’t trust the lawyer…assuming you passed the bar.

  • Nobody

    Boy you might want to study some constitutional law.

  • Nobody

    Well, I guess this is how the libs want us to look at the constitution just look at what they want do with gun laws.

  • Nobody

    Well, first of all if you can go that fast that is amazing we are talking about driving a vehicle here.

  • Erin

    Glad to see people are finding more ways to NOT take responsibility for their actions. And on top of it, blaming the government. If there is no victim, there is no crime? Seriously? That is the most asinine thing I have ever read. You run a red light, you FAILED to obey traffic laws. Hey legal quoting genius, that constitutes a crime. Read your city/town/boro laws and ordinances. Pretty sure there will be something in there that says it against the law to run red lights. Just because you didn’t run a red light and then injure or kill someone or damage property, doesn’t mean you didn’t commit a driving violation I.e. a crime.

  • Just had 2 cents

    In most states, the owner of the car is liable no matter who is driving. The only time the owner is not liable is if he/she can prove the car was taken by illegal means.
    Also, The State is your accuser. When you are pulled over because a laser or radar recorded your speed as over the legal limit, you do not fight the machine (other than inspection and calibration records… just like a camera) you fight “The State.” Thus your right to confront your accuser is still intact.

  • Just had 2 cents

    In most states, the owner of the car is liable no matter who is driving. The only time the owner is not liable is if he/she can prove the car was taken by illegal means.
    Also, The State is your accuser. When you are pulled over because a laser or radar recorded your speed as over the legal limit, you do not fight the machine (other than inspection and calibration records… just like a camera) you fight “The State.” Thus your right to confront your accuser is still intact.

  • Levi Peterson

    I’m a Constitutional Lawyer and I am President, so I win this argument. LMAO Every day I see the same routine of some idiot trying to win their way on the internet claiming they are something they are not. Way to go, loser. LMAO. Just last week i had some guy tell me that it wasn’t possible to make hydrogen (Without a magic wand of course) and that it also couldn’t be used as a fuel, because after all, he was a professor at some Ivy League school. LMAO

  • Levi Peterson

    Democrats can only pay their bills cause the money they have they stole from someone else.

    General George S. Patton quote: Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politicians.

  • John Doe

    so… were you driving or what?

  • mfogg2

    Actually under “District” Law you have no constitutional rights since you are not domiciled in one of the several states. DC is a federal territory and is not one of these united states. It is patently a territory of the US. Look it up. They loosely adhere to some of the principles of the constitution but have no duty to do so. They do have the obligation under their laws to prove you were the driver and even if they supposedly have a photo of someone who looks like you, you are under no obligation to acquiesce to the administering body to let them know whether it was you or not. Better to follow the instructions above than to pay. If more of us would do this it would just make it not profitable for the scumbags and they would not continue using them.

  • Guest

    If the state is the plaintiff and it is a civil action then according to the constitution, the united States holds the original jurisdiction in that case. We have handed our birthright for a bowl of soup by trading our freedom for security.

  • Jeffrey Main

    If the State of whatever is the plaintiff and it is a civil action then according to the constitution the united States supreme court holds the original jurisdiction. There is a very good reason for this but we have traded our birthright of “freedom” for a bowl of soup “security”

  • Jeffrey Main

    Just go be a good sheep and pay everything the your state god tells you to.

  • I_hate_the_Internet

    The issue isn’t the lack of a human, it’s lack of proof that it was you who was driving the vehicle. The state has the burden of proof, and unless they can prove it was you driving, they don’t have anything to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt.

  • Jeffrey Main

    I served in the Navy and despite that I don’t care whether you are military or not: It is our civic duty not to comply. Ever heard of civic disobedience. Our forefathers would be rolling over in their graves seeing the way we have handed our freedoms for security. In all cases, and I mean all cases the plaintiff has the burden of proof, you have no obligation to admit guilt and just pay the damn ticket. That is one of the most disgusting things I hear from some of the biggest lazy ass douchebags “Just pay the ticket cuz it’s easier” so you got a ticket. Fight the damn thing and if you lose pay the damn consequences don’t be such a pussy and hand it to them. It’s no wonder were in the shit we are in here. So many panzy asses who would rather just pay than fight. Good luck because we are very quickly going to be living in and Orsen Welles 1985 society. Oh wait, we are already pretty much there gauging from the responses here. Flood the courtrooms with the fight. Don’t lay down for shit. Stop paying the assholes everything. registrations, tickets, fees and fines. Make it cost so much and pay off so little they have to lay off all the assholes they employ an make them do something other than suck the tit of productive members of society. There is no such thing as sucking the government’s tit because every person sucking requires 10 or more people sucking from production to pay for it.https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/p480x480/1474402_241235046039056_1110139344_n.jpg

  • Jeffrey Main

    The camera isn’t gauging and accusing you of the speed it is the radar.

  • Jeffrey Main

    Wow, nothing conservative about Dickhead Cheney, Good luck with the idea. I agree that rinocrats have ruined this country but to think that people with true conservative views have anything to to with the scumbags currently in Washington is completely nuts. True conservatives want less government intrusion and more personal responsibility and freedom. We want government at all levels out of our lives. The country is hurting from liberal views which have come from both parties over the past 50 years. There is currently no distinguishing a difference between the Democrat and republican parties at this time.

  • Jeffrey Main

    Hey Kenny, it is flabbergasting to see how many Idiots there are who have no idea what principles our country was founded on. Blown away but almost not surprised.

  • Jeffrey Main

    I’ve beat multiple traffic tickets on that premise alone. Never was “SERVED” the ticket. Go look up the legal definition of service and you will find out if you ever had a parking ticket placed on your car then you were not SERVED. You also have the same defense here if you want to use it. The other issue is yes they do have to prove who was driving and despite the demand they make on the ticket you are under no legal obligation to tell them ANYTHING including who was driving at the time, even if it was you. Even if they have a photo of someone in the car who looks like you, you are under no obligation to admit it was you or that you were driving. Sick of the sheeple just laying down and handing the country over to a police state. Good luck with the whole George Orwell’s 1984 scenario because we are heading there quickly.

  • Jeffrey Main

    assholes and collectors for the state and it’s criminal banking cartel

  • Jeffrey Main

    I’ll say this all agian: I’ve beat multiple traffic tickets on that premise alone. Never was “SERVED” the ticket. Go look up the legal definition of service and you will find out if you ever had a parking ticket placed on your car then you were not SERVED. You also have the same defense here if you want to use it. The other issue is yes they do have to prove who was driving and despite the demand they make on the ticket you are under no legal obligation to tell them ANYTHING including who was driving at the time, even if it was you. Even if they have a photo of someone in the car who looks like you, you are under no obligation to admit it was you or that you were driving. Sick of the sheeple just laying down and handing the country over to a police state. Good luck with the whole George Orwell’s 1984 scenario because we are heading there quickly.

  • Jeffrey Main

    You need to respond when it goes to collections by demanding a hearing and demand they prove SERVICE and that you demand a hearing. Make sure you research the Legal Definition of SERVICE. They should do a hearing if you claim you were never served. I would also notice the department of motor vehicles in your state of your demand so they are aware you are contesting it for lack of service based on the fact the the “FIRST” time you were aware of the ticket was the NOTICE from collection. You should look up the rules of civil procedure and you will see that most if not all of these asshole pretend to follow the rules but miss some major ones. You may be screwed but you should educate yourself to the game they play.

  • Jeffrey Main

    Not true. I have one every one I have gotten here in FL.

  • Jeffrey Main

    I’ve won every one here in FL.

  • Jeffrey Main

    Yeah, Garden state if your growing smokestacks.

  • Jeffrey Main

    Beat 8 parking tix in New York, No SERVICE look up the actual legal definition of that word in your state.

  • Jesse Turner

    I was just going to comment that this is a great article, and most of these offenses are pure revenue gain for the government agency, be it local or state, placing the cameras (It changes from area to area) since they literally have an automatic camera taking pictures and no personnel issuing the ticket unless you count maintenance staff, which is a relatively small amount of people behind so many tickets for the government. They won’t bring in court costs to this very cost-effective program if they can just move on to more people willing to pay.

    On another note, there can be a crime if there is no victim. They’re victim-less crimes and some examples of such are:

    individual purchase and consumption of recreational drugs (provided one does not hurt anyone else due to the effects)

    prostitution and/or soliciting for prostitution

    public nudity or fornication (providing there are no witnesses that have not consented)

    individual possession of guns (provided one does not hurt anyone with that gun)

    not using a seatbelt in a car (could potentially, harm another individual, or incur medical costs to the state)

    disobeying evacuation or curfew orders issued for natural disasters (such as a hurricane)

    gambling with one’s own money

  • Busterhymen

    Interesting. Who pays the fine if I’m driving a rental car?

  • tmonsterC

    Doesn’t work in Florida… Driv ng is a privilege and falls under civil court… They never do this. & it’s the State gov and most important lae enforcement that you should blame.

  • Kenny1776

    Read the article. He didn’t run a red light.

  • Kenny1776

    I take it you’ve never gone over the speed limit in your entire life? Otherwise, shut up.

  • mimi

    Yes, Then the rental place will charge your credit card (the card you have with them) the amount plus service fee of $15.00.

  • Michele Scalpi

    LOL lawyers really don’t understand the system only what they where brainwashed to believe…I have had several cases dismissed or trial cancelled due to questioning authorities of laws…Look up enactment clause it MUST be incorporated into ANY law for it to be law. Look up case law on Enactment Clause. There are none in ANY traffic law in the US. NYS Constitution requires enactment clause so does the supreme court. Each State should have it in their Constitution…According to the Supreme Court our Constitution is the law of the land! If you are studying to be a lawyer you should do your own research instead of relying on the BAR association to educate you on what is lawful as opposed to legal…Legal has to do with corporation not living men/women. The BAR is an extension of the Crown…yes you take an oath to the crown this is why in the original Constitution; Lawyers [barons] were not allowed to hold office…Lawyers are treasonists to the Constitution and that’s why you are not taught to defend it properly! The BAR is also established under the Moderator of the Curia, owned by the Vatican…So forgive me if a law education in ANY school means anything to someone that is more educated on law then those who attend…

  • Michele Scalpi

    By the way a retired circuit court judge turned me on the facts of the enactment clause…its not a theory it is fact. I have been researching “real law” for over a decade…and all the history behind it…**hint there is a huge difference between what’s legal and what’s lawful….

  • Chuck1

    I told the court that the person that was driving the car had died. I got an obituary from the obituary section of my local newspaper and presented it to the court and matter was drooped.

  • Michele Scalpi

    LOL the fact remains if he had hired a lawyer he would have paid dearly and still it would not have been dismissed…

  • Yep.

    Yeah this wouldn’t do anyone in IL any good because by the law of the state of IL the registered owner of the vehicle is responsible for the ticket. I only know this because I looked up the rules and stuff for the red light cameras in my town to find out how they determine the tickets and stuff. And it said that it is an IL law that the owner of the vehicle is responsible for the ticket. But I mean I guess you could try to do what this guy did…

  • http://www.lucadiana.com/ Luca

    Oh well, if we’re calling names then I call you a douche

  • Poopoodiaper72

    You are from Minneapolis. There is about a 96.4 percent chance that you are a liberal. The U of M has a decent law school, but not within a fart sniff of the top 3.

  • Alan N. Sussman

    Why don’t you read what he wrote. He was talking about the accusation that he had poor deductive reasoning and defended himself by bringing up the fact that people with poor deductive reasoning don’t get into a top 3 law school.

  • Alan N. Sussman

    Dear Nobody: Sounds like you’re not a liberal but you are definitely an idiot. There are idiots on both sides of the aisle, congress included.

  • Alan N. Sussman

    and Republican conservatives steal elections. Sandra Day O’Connor set the stage by making sure Al Gore would not become president, thus allowing the corrupt, inept administration of selected president bush and president cheney to take office. Stop being a jerk by making this a political issue.

  • erica

    all the images in this article seem to be broken

  • Citizen’s Arrest

    You know, the government has a great deal to answer for but they are not alone. This country is in the condition it is because of citizens that know what they have done wrong but won’t admit to their mistakes and would rather blame someone else. If you can’t control your life to the point that you do not know where your kids are or who has possession of your property then you are more to blame than anyone for this country’s poor reputation. I have more respect for someone who breaks the law and admits to it than anyone who commits a crime and tries to get away with it. If I was on a jury, I might as well convict you just for being an a__hole, and it wouldn’t be questioned because we are the jury and do not have to justify ourselves, even though you would be guilty of being an @ss.

  • wygit

    Sure he’s wrong.

    You just posted a link to the “Aircraft Safety Act of 2000, Aircraft Sabotage Act” in which it specifies that the only motor vehicles this act is referring to are commercial vehicles?

    What does that have to do with red light cameras?

    Or “sovereign individuals”, for that matter.

  • Nutshang Lo

    Bullshit. Any officer in the Navy or Army is no different than typical Officer Donut Breath working the beat. Your training encompasses following orders from the top, period. You have no room to “civilly disobede”. You have no ground to question your orders, you just have to follow them because that is all you are trained to do.

    Like I said, I have been in and out of DC for work, and I know for a fact that if you write a sincere letter of apology, explain why you were speeding/ran a red light, even lie a little (“My brakes don’t work too well and I didn’t want to stop in the middle of an intersection so I just sped up to try and beat the light” done.), you will get the ticket dismissed without even stepping foot into a court room (DC allows you to contest traffic tickets online).

    So why does this fucking enlisted army scumbag have to make a big deal out of nothing? Why did he demand “proof” that he knows the prosecutor doesn’t have? Why did he have to list constitutional amendments when he clearly has no idea what they mean or even say? Why did he have to go post it on some shitty web news outlet, acting like he is shining light on something that has always been very obvious about photo-enforced tickets?

    Any educated working american knows how easy it is to get out of any minor traffic ticket, photo enforced or not. And this guy is acting like some hero like he is defending our constitutional rights to things like “face our accuser” which he mistakenly identified as a camera.

    And to top it all off, he actually has the nerve to sign “Former US Military” at the end of the letter? Knowing that if he were ever stopped by a police officer for a minor traffic violation, showing the officer his military ID would have gotten him off anyways. He is expecting some sort of preferential treatment because he enlisted in the US army? Are you kidding me? This is literally the worst type of human being.

  • Adam Roget

    That was possibly the worst argument I’ve heard so far and sounds like it comes from someone who is a very bad driver. No one said anything about driving in a reckless manner. The point is that most speed limits are made unreasonably low so that governments can make money off speeding tickets. I live in DC, where the speed limits are ridiculous: 40 on 395 (a major highway), 30 on New York Avenue (a MAJOR road), and 30 on Connecticut Avenue (another huge street). Other areas around DC and in NoVa aren’t much better: 50-55 on highways. If you think that it’s reckless to drive in excess of these hilariously low limits, then that’s a clear indication that you’re not a good driver and shouldn’t drive. Just because you are fine with blindly obeying every nonsensical law that governments institute doesn’t mean that everyone else is content with being a sheep. Also, I wouldn’t be “singing a different tune” if someone were speeding and hurt someone I loved, or at least not for the reason that they were speeding; it would be because they’re just a terrible driver. Only bad drivers are incapable of controlling their cars in excess of 50 mph. Let me guess – you’re either: (1) 16 years old; (2) 80 years old; or (3) an extremely whiney and annoying soccer mom. Get off your high horse and learn to drive.

  • Adam Roget

    Speeding is only a “real problem” if you don’t know how to drive. Given how absurdly low speed limits are, it really shouldn’t be called “speeding”; it should be called “driving like a normal person.” Traffic is already bad enough as it is without people like you wanting everyone to slow to a crawl. If you can’t drive at reasonable speeds (i.e., above 45 on major roads and above 65 on highways), then don’t drive. Take public transportation.

  • Adam Roget

    Except that speeding is not wrong; arbitrarily low speed limits are wrong. If you can’t drive effectively above 65 on a highway or 45 on a major road, you shouldn’t be driving.

  • Adam Roget

    You’re either highly unintelligent or a very bad driver. Just because it’s a law doesn’t mean it’s correct – government isn’t exactly run by geniuses. Speed limits are made unreasonably low so that governments can make more money from tickets; how are you unaware of this? If you think that going 70 in a 55 or 50 in a 40 is reckless, then you’re an awful driver and shouldn’t be on the road.

  • Adam Roget

    You must be a really bad driver if you think that. Awful drivers cause accidents and fatalities, not “speeders.” If a person is a good driver, he/she can drive as effectively at 75 as at 50. It’s the terrible drivers who don’t know how to merge or judge traffic movement that cause accidents.

  • http://www.farandawaycycling.com/ Bob Thompson

    Studies have shown that when there is a wide disparity in vehicle speeds, accidents increase greatly. They also show that drivers generally ignore unreasonably low posted limits. A common practice is to set a posted limit at the 85th percentile of the prevailing speed, i.e., when traffic is free flowing, the speed at which 85% of drivers are complying voluntarily by virtue of what they consider to be appropriate.

    That doesn’t mean there aren’t camera speed traps in Wash DC such as on 295. I think more a money grab there than a safety issue.

    FWIW, nationally about 20% of fatalities are attributed to “driving too
    fast for conditions”. I can call it “speeding” and you can call it “not knowing how to drive”. The result is the same and very real.

  • Stephen Beasley

    Where are the photos? All I see are photo plasceholders.

  • Doug

    When I read the article it seems like this guy is getting fined every day. Maybe he should actually pay more attention to his driving than trying to get out of it. Might be a bit safer for any kids that might be on the streets he drives on.

  • Dave Chaim

    …And “ppxg” provides the only sensible (and helpful) response.

  • Dave Chaim

    …And “ppxg” provides the only sensible (and helpful) response.

  • paige

    too bad that on long island, there are signs all around the court house stating that you can’t bring your red light tickets there to be fought.

  • cvd4311

    No matter what, it is not the 4th amendment to confront the accuser, it is the 6th amendment. And since DC is not a state this could be grounds to fight the ticket.

  • emilia

    As simple as that, Jen? I DON’T speed. I don’t keep my eyes glued to the dashboard to monitor speed, because that would be stupid and dangerous, and I can’t tell by feel, so I can’t say that I go precisely at the speed limit for every split second, but I can say that my speeds hovers around the posted speed limit. I don’t speed. And yet I’ve gotten these tickets. I’ve gotten them because they are designed as speed traps. And during winter break I got one in the mail, which is now giving me a matter of days in which to respond. It’s one thing to know that you have bills coming in, and that you have 25 days after receipt to pay. It’s another to have no idea something is coming which comes with severe penalties for missing a deadline, and which gives you very little time in which to respond. How can anyone go on vacation, to the hospital, or travel on business with that hanging over one’s head? But the main point I have to make is this: I wasn’t exceeding the speed limit. I got a ticket, and I wasn’t speeding. The photo doesn’t show that I was. In fact, the two photos look exactly the same. Comparing the car to the background, there’s no discernible distance traveled at all. On the other hand, there’s another car in the photo, closer to the camera, which DOES show a very slight change of position. See what I’m getting at?

    A red light camera is a different thing altogether. We watch the road and light with our eyes, respond with our feet. The light turns yellow as a warning that it will soon turn red, so we are able to come to a stop in time. It’s clear-cut. A speed camera doesn’t actually track whether or not someone is speeding, which is to say deliberately exceeding the speed limit for long enough to demonstrate intent and to correct if the car has accidentally picked up speed between glances at the speedometer. The speed camera is often mounted just where the road dips downhill and the car picks up speed. It snaps two pictures within a split second, which certainly doesn’t demonstrate that a driver was going too fast 10 feet before or after the photo. Another variety of trap is on a road (say a multi-lane main road which is more than 20 miles long). The speed limit is unaccountably dropped by 10 mph for a quarter mile section, then raised again. The sign, if there is one, is not visible due to placement, trucks in the other lanes, or otherwise. Or it’s not placed sufficiently in advance of the section to allow a driver who DOES see it to adjust quickly enough. This is a trap, intended to catch law-abiding drivers. It’s a disgrace.

    The cameras cause people to dangerously slam on the brakes, and then to speed in areas where there is no camera. They are a menace.

  • RedheadedAngel

    that is stupid, if someone uses my car and runs someone over THEY are responsible not me .. why are people with minimal brain cells commenting advice on the internet? just because you have a record as long as your arm does not make you the go to on legal advice lol

  • Louie

    It appears you are a braggard liberal now.

  • Louie

    I think I love you. In a good kind of way.

  • Michele Scalpi

    LOL

  • sbryant

    Good advice.
    BTW I like the old Intelhub mascot better.

  • de

    I beat a ticket using this very method. It worked. I had the hearing in front of whoever the guy was. He was very nice about the whole thing and dismissed the ticket, apologized for the inconvenience and sent me on my way.

  • actionjksn

    You know what a real douche bag is? It’s a person who is so stupid that they comment on an article that they didn’t even read, Aren’t those some the most stupidly annoying douche bags, Grace?

  • anticriminals

    You are the victim. You are the victim of the state’s extortion scam. Can you not see that this is nothing more than extortion, racketeering? Your government was overthrown with the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

    Organized crime took over your government and is passing itself off as ‘government’. Criminals cannot represent government!
    The state cannot claim to be the victim, drag you into their court, give you a fair hearing/ due process, when it is obvious that they are out to rob you.

    You have no ‘government’ protecting you. Where do you go for redress of grievance against this organized crime ring that is passing itself off as government? Can you really expect justice from a system so obviously filthy, rotten corrupt?

    The ticket, and all their documents, should be viewed as evidence against them! They are treating you as though you are their slave and that you are bound to obey them. They are the criminals and maybe someday enough people will see them for what they are and then the people will start hanging these traitors.

  • Alouette

    Your reasoning is amazingly twisted. The ticket is void from the gitgo. I would explain why but you would not understand my explanation, therefore it would be a waste of my time. But trust me, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

  • ARNOLD CARL TAPP

    >>> THERE IS A MUCH BETTER WAY TO DEAL WITH THE ” SPY ON THE POLE “.
    GO TO ANY AUTO PARTS STORE AND BUY THE SPRAY WHICH DIFFUSES AND FOILS CAMERAS .
    THERE IS ALSO A LIKCENSE PLATE COVER WHICH ACCOMPLISHES THE SAME RESULT . <<<

  • retrogeek42

    The reason no points are deducted is because red light cameras cannot stand up in a court. The write of the piece is right; if you send them a check, or plead guilty, you effectively waive your rights.

    Now I suppose that forensic experts could likely examine the photos and prove beyond a reasonable doubt who the driver of the vehicle happened to be, so the 6th Amendment standard could be met. But honestly, who’s going to bring in a several hundred dollar an hour professional for depositions, trial, and all of the other court niceties in order to collect on a few hundred dollar ticket?

    This is very similar to the issue of consent regarding vehicles. Most people (on occasion I even include myself among them) willingly waive their Constitutional rights by allowing the police to search their vehicle. Their rights were never violated; they waived them (just as those who plead guilty to red light camera violations do). But the fact that they waived them doesn’t change the fact that the rest of the country still has them.

    And I’m not a top law school student…but actually a fairly decent Constitutionalist.

  • retrogeek42

    Actually the right to face your accuser wasn’t about a machine. It was about the right to a fair trial, which rests on the principle that you cannot be proven guilty without being able to offer a chance for defense. In a hypothetical scenario, they could probably hire someone to analyze the photos and satisfy the reasonable doubt requirements, but the costs would not be justified by the relatively minimal return.

    If you stand your ground, you’re going to get these dismissed every time.

  • tbone

    A better question is whether it’s ethical for cops or cameras to issue traffic citations for actions or maneuvers while driving that are not dangerous to anyone such as traveling a few mph above the posted speed or proceeding through an intersection with a stop sign without coming to a complete stop when it’s clear that no one else is at or approaching the intersection. Are people not capable of using their own common sense and good judgement while doing anything anymore? Do we need the govt. to wipe our asses for us too?

  • http://www.deathbycone.com Jared Kotoff

    This sounds like lyrics to a Porter Robinson song

  • matt

    I just didn’t pay mine and they left me alone. They can’t suspend your license, they can’t tow your car or boot it, all they can do is send to collections which costs them more money than the ticket is. Red light cameras are bullshit.

  • josh

    Wow, you are a total sheep

  • 7575radar

    You used the slang word ‘bro’ on the internet in a failed attempt to look somehow cool? NOT cool, bro…

  • jannaM

    “The state” doesn’t operate most of these. They’re done by private companies.

  • jannaM

    Are you suggesting that we simply shouldn’t enforce speed limits and red light violations?

  • jannaM

    My daughter got a ticket for running a red light. She received a ticket in the mail with a photo, as well as a link to a website that showed VIDEO of her passing the light after it turned red.

    This letter may have had such a link.

  • jannaM

    Incorrect sir.

  • jannaM

    If your car is parked in a handicap parking spot, it doesn’t matter who put it there. The owner of the car is responsible. In many jurisdictions, the same applies to that same car going through a red light.

    (I am absolutely against these cameras for other reasons, but your logic just isn’t sound.)

  • jannaM

    No, you should man-up and take responsibility for the ticket.

  • jannaM

    He never said he wasn’t driving.